Episode 39: A Guide to Understanding Your Dog’s World with Sue Sternberg

Corey : Hello, dog lovers, and welcome to Muttz with Manners Canine Academy podcast, where we will share dog training tips and educational information to help you raise your pup, young or old, so they can be a loving part of your family and your community for life. Our goal is to help enrich the lives at both ends of the leash. And I know today’s topic will do just that.

I’m your host,  Corey McCusker, canine coach. And today I am ecstatic and so excited to have Sue Sternberg canine behaviour and shelter dog specialist, teacher of dog trainers like me, shelter owner and author. Let me just tell you a little bit about Sue and her contributions to the dog world.

Sue has been working in a shelter and as a dog trainer since 1981. Sue was the 2016 recipient of the APDT Lifetime Achievement Award. Awesome.

She founded the shelter featured in the HBO documentary Shelter Dogs. Her over 40 years of canine behaviour experience includes as a dog control officer, behaviour consultant at the ASPCA shelter owner, a successful competitor in a variety of dog sports, with nose work being her current wild favorite and a teacher of dog trainers worldwide. She has published many books and DVDs on all aspects of dog behaviour, training and assessments.

Her latest book is Assessing Aggression Thresholds in Dogs, which I have right here, using the Assess a Pet protocol to better understand aggression. Sue has been developing and refining assessment techniques for decades to help shelter workers and trainers determine the likelihood that a dog will engage in aggressive behaviors. This book includes Sue’s newest protocols based on the theory that sociability is the key predator predictor of a dog’s potential for aggression.

Sue’s newest DVD project is a giant lifetime video collection of discrete behaviour serving as a catalogue of body language. Over three hours of intensive study guides to dogs are available through dogwise.com. 

Sue is a hobby paleontologist and spends as much free time as she can exploring the desert with her dogs, looking for fossils and also pretty rocks. She loves all things. Star Trek is an avid tea drinker, which I have one right now and plays the fiddle to. What more can we say about you?

So before I hand it over to Sue, what I do want to tell everyone listening today is when I say I’m ecstatic about Sue being on this podcast today. She is the reason I am doing what I’m doing in the dog world right now. I’m going to say back in the early 2000s, I was at a talk that she was doing in Ontario, talking about the shelter dogs, talking about her assessments, and I just was overwhelmed with it.

And I had always rescued dogs. And I really was thinking of my second career, leaving the bank. And what am I going to do?

And I really had a passion for learning about dogs. And when I heard her story, it really made me get serious about becoming a dog trainer. And right after her talk, a few months later, I went down to New York to visit a friend who had relocated there.

And I had mentioned about Sue and her shelter, which was not far from there. So what we did is my friend and I got in a car and we drove to her shelter so I could see Sue’s wonderful shelter. During that journey, I was talking about my passion, talking about how I wanted to help dogs have better behaviour and manners, and keep them in their homes, more out of the shelters.

And that’s where I came up with the name Muttz with Mannerz. And my whole journey in my business started. So thank you so much, Sue.

Thank you for taking the time today to be on the podcast. I’m just thrilled.

Sue: Well, I’m so thrilled about your journey as well. I’m so glad that you came into the dog world with the intentions that you did and all the work you’ve done, which is the hard work that needs to be done.

 

Corey: And there’s still lots more work that we need to do. So, yeah. And today I’m having you on the call because I saw you speak at the conference in California.

 

I live in Stouffville, Ontario, Canada, which is just 30 minutes north of Toronto. When I moved here, it was a cute, quiet town that was referred to as the country close to the city. The population in 2001 was around 22,000.

And now in 2024 or 2025, it is 52,000. So it’s more than doubled. And Stouffville is in the York region, which is the fastest-growing region and is expected to grow to almost two million.

And now, yes, it’s smaller than Toronto, which is almost three million. But if we look at New York City, too, which is even crazier, it’s eight million. But you know what?

Two million is a lot. And I’m sure many of these people are going to have dogs. And so my point is the world is evolving and growing.

And it’s not just my little quiet town. So many places are exploding with development. And what with that comes high-rise buildings, construction, more traffic, noise, and encountering more people, and other dogs.

And that’s going to be new to all, especially our dogs. And recently at that conference, I heard you speak at the APDT conference in California. You and Dr. Tim Lewis discussed a walk in the neighbourhood, which was so timely. And when I went up and told you my story, I said, can you please do a podcast with me? This is so important. So thank you.

So that’s what we’re going to be talking about today is what’s happening to the neighbourhoods, the overall, development, the population growing and really what it does have. So let’s just start talking about dogs. And I’d like to take a look at how dogs view the world through their senses.

So let’s first talk about their senses, which I know you know a lot about. So how many senses does a dog have?

Sue :Well, they have all of the classic five senses. Dr. Tim Lewis, author of The Biology of Dogs, which I highly recommend. He talks about how he thinks they have many, many senses.

And I think there’s some belief that as humans, we have many more senses as well. You know, we talk about our gut sense and there’s increasing evidence. I think that our gut microbiome has its own brain, all this stuff.

So in fairness. I think we all have a lot of senses that we’re not even aware of. And certainly, we know that dogs have a better sense of hearing and a much better sense of olfaction.

Their sense of smell is so much better than ours. We can’t even replicate it. They have a sense organ that we don’t even know how it works.

So we, you know, can you imagine, you know, they have an entire organ that we don’t have, so we can’t even, you know, how would you explain what something smells like to an alien who has no sense of smell, right? So these things, so they experience the world fairly differently than we do. I think they do.

I think dogs do experience the world pretty visually, as we do as well. And certainly, they got all sorts of. They get more information.

It’s probably more intense and. And so while their vision may not be quite as good as ours, their vision in low light is superb. And I just think they see the world completely differently than we do.

And they see more and then they get more emotional messages, I think, than we do.

Corey: That’s really key. And, you know, you mentioned Dr. Tim Lewis and his book, The Biology of Dogs, which I was afraid to read because it’s lots I’m like, OK, I’m going to do it on the audiobook. And so I’m listening to it now.

And you actually did the forward there. And I think you mentioned something there about how it really opened up your world to the scientific world, because I think, too, if I look at it, I have been so focused on doing behavior and all that. So it really is interesting.

So you mentioned that when we walk with our dog, they see differently than us, like what they’re seeing is a little bit different. And so can you touch on that?

Sue
I mean, they have a slightly different colour range. They see colors. They don’t see certain colours.

Well, and you have to remember, they’re seeing from very low and the temperature that they get when they walk is different than ours because some of them are four inches off the ground, six inches off the ground, eight, twelve. I mean, even a large dog like a German shepherd dog or, you know, even a very large dog like a Great Dane is seeing the world from a much lower level. And that’s got to be a little bit more frustrating.

They’re not getting as much visual information then or they’re getting different ones than we are.

Corey :Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mentioned the growing city I’m living in right now.

But if we look at pet parents, they can live in various types of environments, such as the rural of the country where like if they’re out in the country, the dogs roam free on the property or some have dog doors where the dogs come and go as they please. They may not have fences or the fences fail and the dog can bark or the dogs in the fenced area or whatever are barking forever. And then you move into the urban, the town or the cities where most interactions are unleashed, which is safer, especially if you’ve got an aggressive or reactive dog as you want to keep them under control.

And then there are the suburbs where it’s less densely populated, where the dogs may have big backyards, but they’re out there unsupervised. And there may be more walking involved with the dog, too. So, Sue, what are some points you’d like to share about dogs in different environments and some things we should, as pet parents, be aware of and avoid or prevent?

Sue :OK, so all the environments have sort of pros and cons. The main thing to recognize is, you said starting out your community, how much it’s growing and developing. And whenever that happens and that’s happening everywhere, when that happens, we lose a lot of our natural spaces and green areas.

And everything just sort of gets more human-made and mechanized. And so because humans and dogs, probably dogs, it’s very important that they have access to the natural world. It’s showing more and more in science that it’s really important for us as humans to have access to the natural world and green spaces.

And it’s getting harder for dogs. So you may think, oh, well, the people who live in rural areas, oh, they can go hiking and that’s really great for their dogs. The problem in a lot of rural areas is so many more dog owners are hiking on trails and going out there, and many of them are off-leash.

And so if you have a dog that is a little frightened of other dogs or doesn’t like encountering new dogs, you can’t really find the solitude that you’re seeking. You’re not finding the natural space solitude that your dog may need. And so it’s actually getting a lot harder to give your dog like off-leash access safely in natural spaces.

And it’s probably much easier if you have a dog that is friendly to all. The problem is many of the dogs out there, despite what people think, because everyone thinks their own dog is friendly, especially if they have it off-leash, have him or her off-leash. Many dogs aren’t really friendly.

Maybe they’re not causing bloodshed, but they are bullying. They’re intimidating. They’re threatening.

They’re scared. And they’re pissing off the recipient dogs, the receiving dogs. And so it gets really hard.

It’s like if you said, well, you know, we have two five-year-old twins, five-year-old human children, and we like to walk them to their piano lessons every day. So we walked five blocks with our two five-year-olds. And during that walk, we see other parents walking with their kids.

We see teenagers walking along. And every single one of the other children is cursing at, taunting, insulting and threatening verbally and threatening our own children. And some of the older teens and older kids that are passing actually have weapons that they’re pointing out and threatening with.

And like your child would be traumatized by the time they’re in a lesson. And for our dogs, that’s what many of them are experiencing. And bark isn’t just bark like a dog isn’t just barking, going, hey, I’m so happy to see you start barking and cursing and threatening.

And they’re over-aroused. And the intensity is frightening to be on the receiving end. So it’s more people have dogs, the harder it is to be a dog.

The more people who have dogs, the harder it is to walk your own dog. And so and that is true sort of in any environment. And we want to walk our dogs because we want to give them, you know, new experiences, new smells, stimulating and enriching life.

But for many of them in many of our neighborhoods in particular, it may just be too stressful. And you may have to put your dog in a car and drive off somewhere where it becomes safer or more. It’s quieter or more solitude.

There is a really great app out there now called Sniff Spot. Yes, you can. It’s anywhere in the country, although it’s more heavily, heavily in use in certain areas than others.

But Sniff Spot. And you can find off-leash, safe, fenced-in or rural areas or dog parks, private dog parks just for you or you and a friend’s dog. And I think that’s a real godsend for a lot of our dogs, because you can rent for an hour, let’s say, a safe, secure, fenced-in area with no other dogs.

And you can let them go off-leash, access nature, and share the joy with them, and it’s very safe. So that is a great solution to what’s happening in the world. But it’s very hard.

I think the most difficult neighbourhoods are the ones that are rural, semi-rural or suburban, where you’re walking your dog on a leash through a neighbourhood. There are underground fences, physical above-ground fences, and there are dogs unsupervised in those yards barking and lunging at you and your dog as you go by. And the same holds true even if the dog’s inside, but at a window, you know, barking, lunging at the window at you and your dog.

No matter who your dog is, that is a very stressful walk. Like I think we looked at their arousal levels, their stress hormones, their cortisol, their, you know, if we did blood work and hormone levels, I think we would find that our dogs who receive this type of barking are very damaged by it and it happens over and over again. Not to mention the fact that every single dog that’s in a yard that is lunging and barking is practicing something that’s not good.

And if that dog were to get loose or the fence were to fail, there could be an attack or a bite. And I know we all like to think, oh, my dog would never do that. He’s just barking.

He’s just having fun. But, you know, if he practices it 500 times in a row and he believes every time that his barking and lunging got rid of the other animal, exactly, is scoring and winning and getting more bolder and bolder or more reinforced for some of his feelings. And that can add up to something bad if he gets loose.

And so anyway, all that all that matters. I think a walk in the neighbourhood can be enriching for many dogs. But I also think to pick your neighbourhood carefully, pick your direction, avoid houses where, you know, there’s a dog behind a fence or a loud dog behind a bay window that’s barking and latching at your dog.

And if you have a really frightened, sensitive dog, you know, consider games in your home, in your backyard. Consider getting involved in a dog sport like scent work or nose work, which can enrich and stimulate, but in a more safe, you know, framework.

Corey
That’s great. That’s great. Insight, too.

And I had started community walks a while ago to really help pet parents and their dogs navigate safely through the community. So, you know, I’ve seen a mix of dogs and the reactions over excited, nervous, playful, out of control and leash.

And yes, we do see the dogs at the window there. It’s interesting. One of the dogs that we walk by that’s been in our classes. Do you think it’s a statue, though? It doesn’t do anything other than just watch us go by.

And I’m like, gosh, I wish my dog was like that. And so but then you see the others where you’re like, OK, are they going to break through the window? This isn’t a good route.

And I’ll actually change the route if I need to, if we know there’s dogs there. So I have a Manitoba Mutt, I call her. She’s got Sheppard, Husky, everything.

And she was pretty good when she was younger, but then she hit those adolescent stages and boom, we’ve got the German Shepherd coming out, which I mean, I’m working on that with her, whether we’re in the car, whether we’re at the door. So I mean, it’s definitely something, especially, you know, you talk about that dog yelling, cursing. I have to make sure that I control my dog, especially being a trainer.

Right. So I just mentioned some mixes in my dog. But can we talk about the different breeds and what may occur based on their breed type?

Sue
Yeah. Yeah. So like if we didn’t go by AKC, the American Kennel Club groupings or Canadian Kennel Club groupings, but we went sort of for more basic instinct types.

But let’s talk about guarding breeds and guarding breed mixes. So those are probably the most challenging to have and to walk because guarding tendencies can mean that your own dog that you’re walking feels the need to guard us or you and may bark at other dogs, may not want them to pass too close. So you as the owner of a guarding breed might have a harder time getting past other dogs or suspicious-looking people.

And so the more crowded it is, the more you have to do that, as well as if you have a guarding type dog and he’s in a yard or he’s behind a bay window. Your guarding dogs are more protective over territory and home and tend to not like others passing too close or coming by. So you’ll have a lot of barking generally and reactivity that needs to be managed because it’s not fair for us to have our dogs barking at others, just as it isn’t fair to our dogs.

Excuse me. It’s not fair for our dogs to be barked at. So guarding breeds probably are the most problematic in terms of barking, lunging, growling type reactivity, almost always based in guarding, and they guard mostly humans and homes.

So that can be a problem. Terriers can be loud and in how they respond. So they are probably not going to take any big emotions quietly.

They’re probably going to be loud in what they do and intense. And I think for a lot of terriers, it takes them a while to once they arouse, it takes them a while to calm back down. Herding dogs can be really sensitive and herding dogs.

A lot of times they have a sensitive physical space. They don’t like dogs getting too close or coming in too fast. So if you’re walking, you’re herding mix and you’re in the oncoming dog is a young Labrador mix who is rambunctious, and has no physical boundaries whatsoever.

There’s going to be a clash there. So, you know, certain breed types are harder. The thing about a lot of the sporting dogs, the retrievers, the pointers, the spaniels, the setters, you tend to get less guarding, and so they tend to be more affable.

And so they can be a little bit more suitable to getting along with other dogs, just like a lot of the scent hounds tend to be bred to live with other dogs which can be a little easier. Not that it’s easy to necessarily walk a coonhound mix who’s big and strong and wants to sniff everything and doesn’t care how much pulling he or she’s doing on the leash. So, you know, there are different breeds and breed types.

Many of the dogs, the individual dogs in any type, most of them are going to have those general breed characteristics. But we also all of us own the anomaly. And so you never know.

We all really have to treat every dog as an individual, except that there are very strong breed tendencies that we do have to acknowledge. You know, when you pick a guarding breed as a puppy, it may sound like you can just raise it, right, and walk it and socialize him or her, and then they’re going to grow up not guarding and they’ll be fine. But that’s not the case, necessarily.

It really depends on the individual dog. And it isn’t all how we raise them. And it isn’t just training.

We really train the dog, but you live with temperament. And temperament comes from many decades, if not centuries, of hard breeding and selection for certain traits. So, yeah.

Corey:So now I’m getting a lot of clients. I think I have one in my home right now, too. So it’s not even but the northern breeds.

And like that’s where we’ve got the reserves and up north. So we’re getting a lot of owners to adopt. Well, one, they’re rescuing them because of situations that they have with them, with health care not being spayed and all that, too.

And then the extremes, colds and stuff. So I’m seeing a lot being adopted and everybody’s adopting these cute puppies. So can you just talk about those northern breeds for a moment?

Sue :Yeah, I think it’s really in general hard to find the right exercise and physical outlets for northern breeds. They’re not known for coming back when called. And anyone who’s ever tried to train a reliable recall off leash in different natural environments where there’s game and small prey.

And it’s really challenging. And it can be even more challenging with a breed that has a very comfortable long-distance range. And so it can be hard.

Like, let’s say you have a big Malamute Husky Mastiffy kind of mix. It’s a very large dog. You can walk that dog for two hours.

The dog will not break out of a walk. And so that’s not a really great exercise. Right.

We do want our dogs to be able to run, to gallop, to burn off that steam. So I think for a lot of the northern breeds, it can be hard to exercise them. If you can find trails and quieter areas where you could hook them up to a bicycle or to a waist belt and, you know, you’re strong and you weigh enough that you can handle a dog tied around your waist.

But some of the pulling sports. Yes. Skiing with them.

Those are some great outlets for them. And so, yeah, we get a lot of northern breeds. I think they really benefit, but I think all dogs benefit from a lot of reward-based training, just like even teaching our dogs to do.

Tricks, cues, things that don’t seem useful, but what’s useful about teaching your dog to sit, to lie down, to roll over, to give paw, to sit pretty, to back up on cue, to crawl on cue. All of these things. Every time you teach your dog a cue and a word and you’re using a lot of positive reinforcement, you increase the bond.

You will automatically get more eye contact. It snowballs. The dog then says, what would you like me to do next?

Let’s do something together. I want to look at you when you call my name. It’s really important for me to come to you because we might be doing something fun.

So, you know, every dog’s trainable. And the more we teach our dogs, the more they love learning, per se, and the more attention we get. If you have your dog’s attention and they think that you’re a source of great fun and shared joy and activity, you have kind of all the leadership you’ll ever want.

So I’m a behaviourist and I, you know, deal a lot with temperament and reading body language. But in my heart, I am a trainer who loves to teach dogs to do things. And I love what it brings to the relationship.

Corey : So, yeah, I think it’s great. And, you know, I mean, I always think that every dog that I’ve had has taught me new things, too. And, you know, we’ve just talked.

Some of us have our dogs already. So like right now, I’ve got Sky and you’ve just given us some really good insight on breeding and experience. And with Skye, you know, you mentioned going on a walk or the predatory, but that’s where she has high prey drive.

She’s never going off leash when we’re in the forest and she is on the whole time. And I love taking her for those walks. So I have a 30-foot lunge line that I have on.

So she gets to do her hunting. And then when we’re in town, she’s not as comfortable in town because of the environment and that. So I always make sure I’m tapping into her natural environment.

And so, Sue, for those listening today, you know, you just talked about a number of things, but the ones that do love to walk their dog and or they’re raising a new puppy or a rescue dog, or maybe they’ve moved into a new neighbourhood. Let’s talk about body language because I think it’s really important that we’re understanding our dog and some of the signs or the body language that we could be looking for. And so what should we be observing to determine if the dog is enjoying the walk or maybe they might be uncomfortable?

Sue: Yeah, that’s a great, really great question. I think the first thing is we all have to prioritize watching and observing our dogs as if we were Jane Goodall out looking at gorillas. In other words, I think we just live with our dogs and we don’t look at them in an objective way.

We don’t tend to look at them and go, how are they feeling? How are they doing? What are they telling me right now?

And so, you know, we just assume, oh, a friend of mine said, oh, I always know when my cat is happy. And I said, oh, how great. How do you know?

She said, well, I can see in his face. And I said, and what does his face look like when he’s happy? And she said, well, you know, I can just tell, you know, he’s got a smile on his face.

And I’m like, well, what does that look like? And she couldn’t. She says, I just know.

And here’s the thing. So the next few weeks I set out to take selfies of myself when I feel happiest, which is almost always when I’m riding my e-mountain bike with my dogs. So I take a selfie and I look like an irritable, morose, unhappy person.

I am not smiling. I am completely serious like I’m lost in my own world. And yet that is me feeling happiest.

So it’s really hard to tell what another animal is feeling.

Exactly. And ask them, so what does a happy dog look like?

And that’s really hard. I think what’s important is a dog who feels safe, let’s say you’re out walking your dog. A dog who feels safe will be interacting with the world he’s walking through, so he will feel safe enough to sniff something. He should be interruptible, like if you said your dog’s name or made a whistling sound or a, or your dog should be able to disengage from whoever he’s looking at and turn and look at you, and you should be able to maybe squat down, bring your arms out, and the dog should be able to touch your dog and get a full-on physical and emotional connection.

If your dog can’t pay any attention to you outside, he may feel a little bit too immersed in his environment, and it would benefit both of you to increase the communication, so to increase the amount that you’re trying to interact with your dog outside. If you look at your dog’s ears, and whether your dog has German shepherd husky ears that stick straight up in a point, or whether he’s more a Labrador retriever type where the ears drop down, the base of the dog’s ears will go forward and will go back, among many other things. Dogs whose ears are way forward, and their eyes and their head and their ears and their spine are all in one alignment, and if you ask yourself, are they leaning forward or are they leaning back, and they tend to be leaning forward, making direct eye contact, ears forward, that’s a dog who’s probably on high alert, and that’s okay for very short periods, but again, we want to see changes of behaviour more than anything. We want to make sure that, you know, if your dog’s walking and his ears are sort of pinned back and his tail is not moving at all, and he’s not changing much of how he or she is moving, and how long would that be? At least every 20 seconds, would be like maximum.

In other words, moving the head, ears moving forward or back, the tail is wagging or not wagging, the spine moving as the dog looks around, then the dog’s probably on high alert or nervous in some way. And so what we want to see are some changes of behaviour. We want to see a head, eyes, and spine that aren’t in one rigid line.

We want to see fluid body movement. The dog should look like a cashew. The dog should look like an arrow.

The dog should look like a cashew again. And you want to imitate your dog, right? So let’s say you’re walking your dog and you’re watching his head and his eyes, and he looks to the right.

I want you to look to the right. And then he looks forward. I want you to look forward to it.

And he looks to the left, looks left. And then try to imitate what you think his head is doing. And what you might find is that you’re hypervigilant.

You might be like, good God, this is not relaxing at all. I’m looking at that noise and that noise and up ahead. So then you could say to yourself, well, I’m not sure my dog is relaxed.

I’m not sure my dog feels safe in this environment, in this territory. And, you know, if you train your dog at home, and when you stay sit at home and you have your treats or his food, and he’s happy to do it and looking forward to a reward, and he sits and he’s all bright and eager, ask your dog to do it outside and see if you get any response. It should be a nice default behaviour that you use to bring your dog back to you.

 

I guess body language is really important. And more important, if you’re not really able to interpret what your dog’s showing you, is to at least understand that the more connected you are to your dog and with your dog, going through life, the safer he or she will feel. So again, there’s nothing that says while you’re halfway down the block, if there’s no other distractions, that you can’t squat down, have your dog come into for, you know, scratch under his collar, really touch him, give a great big kiss, and then say, okay, let’s keep going.

And the main thing is, even more than just reading their body language is making sure that you’re watching them more than you’re watching your phone. And like, if I could make one rule, it would be, stay off social media, stay off our phones. When we’re with our dogs out in public, it’s hard for your dog to be out in public.

He should not be left hanging and on his own. And so if I’m walking my dog and I’m in an area, actually, it’s true, even if I’m in a beautiful, natural area, we’re in the desert, we don’t have to worry about seeing another soul. If I’m going to be on the phone, or, oops, sorry, hang on, speaking of phone, let me, if I’m out with my dog, no matter what, if I have a phone call, I will generally leash up.

If I’m not on a leash, I will ask my dog to sit. So I can anchor my dog. I will record my dog.

And then like, if I’m texting, I’m, I’ll be texting for a second. My dog is right in front of me within my communication. So that’s really important.

When you watch people and their dogs on TV, they don’t pay attention to their dogs. And the dogs always seem well-behaved and they just are able to cope with everything. And that’s acting, that’s TV.

In real life, it’s hard to be in public with our dogs and we should be there for them, making sure that they’re safe. So again, like when push comes to shove, imitate them. Okay.

That’s great. Yeah. And see how you feel.

Corey: Okay. That’s really good. So we’ve talked about watching them now and reading their body language, knowing, you know, if they’re hyper-alert or relaxed or stressed.

So for dogs that are anxious and show signs of stress, or maybe it’s a new environment that they’re going into. So they’re a little bit uncertain. So what are some ways that we can help build their confidence?

Sue:So I think some ways to help build their confidence is to be aware that we, that they might be nervous. And so what does that look like? They may be panting when it’s not hot.

And when they haven’t exerted themselves enough for panting, they might be panting, but the tongue is not sticking out past their bottom front teeth. That tends to be a stress type pant. And also like a low tail or even a high tail that’s not moving a lot.

And so what can we do? One is you want to say, okay, I’m going to, this is, I’m walking down, you know, Oak street. And I noticed that my dog is nervous on Oak Street.

So then you say, I’m going to walk down Oak Street the next three days. Does it get better? Like if I repeat the path and it becomes more familiar, is my dog more relaxed?

Am I seeing more changes of behaviour, more fluid motions in my dog, more, more relaxed, whatever? After it becomes familiar, then I want to prioritize familiar places for that dog. It helps sometimes to make two choices.

One, move faster and stay more connected with your dog. Sometimes a brisk pace doesn’t give an anxious dog enough time to look around and decide that that fire hydrant looks scary or whatever. So a long, a longer stride on your part.

If with a nervous dog, sometimes it helps to walk more confidently as you’re, as a human. And I would also want to burst out laughing when no one’s watching. If you laugh every once in a while, your dog seems to think that maybe you’re having a great time and he or she should too.

You can try saying, okay, I’m observing my dog. We’re walking down Maple Street. My dog seems nervous.

I’m going to make an about-turn and go back the other way. And I want to see if that changes how my dog looks. Does he look more relaxed?

Is he just as nervous? When, my dog pulls harder to go home than he does to leave? And if so, he may not be enjoying himself the way I am hoping he’s enjoying himself.

And then you could try a different route. You might try driving your dog to a cemetery or an industrial area where it’s a lot quieter. Go to a parking lot, a large parking lot of a business that’s closed.

So there’s no one in the parking lot and see if your dog seems more relaxed. And, the other thing is, you know, again, try if you do your work and train a lot at home. Um, and so you should be able to see, call your dog and he should be able to turn on a dime and come running to you in anticipation of something great.

And if you practice that in your living room where you’re both really calm and comfortable and feel safe, can you do that in a more stressful or busy or more distracting environment? Maybe you’d have to use better treats, but could get the same response in a new area? Um, would your dog even take a treat out on the street?

And if they can’t, they’re probably a little bit too aroused and a little bit too nervous. They should be able to take a treat, um, outside as well. And, uh, so those are some of the things, again, more connection, the more we, like, I think dogs appreciate when we’re watching them and paying attention.

I think if you look at a dog walking with a person, there will, a lot of them glance back and check in with a person. And I feel like every time our dog checks in with us, they should know that we’ve been watching them, especially in scary public, out in public where there’s a lot of, uh, distractions and threats. So I do think it’s really important that we’re attentive, um, and engaged with our dog.

Corey: That’s a great point. Um, you know, we had talked about, like doing this and, um, this podcast and the topic and everything. And, you know, I had somebody come up and I, I, I’m adding this in and I had recently a pet parent had her little dog out on a walk.

And you talked about those dogs barking at the fence and this little dog, the dog did escape the backyard and this little dog was attacked by the large dog and the dog did survive and was a terrier. So very confident afterwards, but I just want to talk about the advice because this is something that could happen. We don’t want it to happen, but what advice can you give owners?

 

If like one, a dog is charging and your dog’s on a leash, what should you do?

Sue: All right. So it’s, it’s really hard. Um, it’s not as uncommon as people think, like people just think, oh, my dog’s safe or he’s not going to, he’s not going to get attacked.

But the fact of the matter is there are dogs that get loose and there are dogs that are very aggressive out there and would kill your dog. If you have a small dog, which means anything, 30 pounds or less, your dog could pretty easily be killed by another larger dog attack. And I, like I placed a Chihuahua mix with my sister who lives in New York City.

And I tried to put the fear of God into her. And I’m like, you own a tiny prey item. You have to look at the streets ahead.

You have to look around you at all times. And if another large dog is off-leash coming at your dog, you have to assume the worst. Your little dog won’t survive even a quick event.

So, um, so one of the things that I do tell people with tiny dogs and smallish dogs is if you can pick your dog up, pick your dog up. Do you instantly make your dog more enticing to the other dog? Can you trigger a predatory event by picking up your dog?

Yes, you can. However, it is worse to leave your dog on the ground where you’re completely at the mercy of the oncoming dog. Assume the worst.

Do not assume the best. Your dog has no, if you have a small dog, no leeway. There’s no room for error.

Um, when you pick up your dog, uh, and you turn your back on another dog, you are, you are asking to be bitten yourself or attacked yourself. Um, and that, of course, I’m not telling you to go out there and get attacked. But, um, if you want to save your own dog, you’d probably survive a couple of bites where your little dog may not.

 

The first thing I would do is, um, assess the situation. If I have a friend who has little terriers, like tiny, tiny Jack Russell about 10 pounds, and she’s in a very dangerous neighbourhood where there are a lot of loose, very large dogs. And when she walks her dogs, she said, she’s always looking around for trash cans and things in the environment that if she had to toss her dogs into a trash can to keep them safe.

So she does that. And then you think, oh, well, how enjoyable is that walk? And I’m like, well, maybe it’s more enjoyable because you also have a feeling of some control if the situation goes bad.

Um, so, um, that, you know, I would say be on the lookout, be willing to step in front of your dog. Um, I do advise a lot of people who may encounter, um, loose dogs to carry a quick-release umbrella, like the kind of umbrella where you press a button and it comes out. And this advice was recommended to me by Trish King, who’s a trainer out in Marin County, California.

She’s a brilliant trainer. And, um, she started recommending this and I just thought it was brilliant. Um, I carry an umbrella with me if I’m in an area where I think I could meet a loose dog.

And so you open it up, it becomes sort of a sparring weapon and a shield around your own dog. It would probably stress out your own dog to have it ejected, but it could save a life. And you’d have a nice bayonet kind of thing to work with.

Um, and report to local animal services every incident. Um, it should go on record if, if an animal is threatening, if an animal is loose, if an animal, you know, report it, make sure it’s on record.

Corey:Yeah, definitely. Those are great tips. Um, I had heard about the umbrella and the trash can, um, from a colleague too.

So I think those are great ones. Now, what if unfortunately, the dog is in a fight with their dog? How do you break it up?

Sue:Um, the, uh, there’s no great answer. So, um, usually beating and hitting screaming and hysterics won’t stop if a dog, if it’s, if it’s a bull breed mix, a type of dog that is part terrier or part dog that was bred to fight other dogs. Um, these are generalizations, but, um, I would, I make the same generalizations about any breed type and, uh, any large terrier, if it’s going to bite, they tend to bite, hold, shake.

They tend to get aroused and they don’t calm down. And so fighting them only makes them bite harder and more. Um, if you can choke a dog out who’s attacking your dog, um, and that is grab a collar and twist and hold the twist until you’ve cut the dog’s airway off till the dog passes out.

It’s usually about 60 seconds. It’s much harder than you think. Um, if a dog is attached to your dog and you can’t let him get him to let go, and he is wearing a collar, see if you can choke him out.

Um, anytime the advice is to put your hands in there and try to stop, you are very likely to get bitten by your own dog or the other one. So again, you have to decide, am I going to try to save my dog? Um, am I going to get maimed, mauled, perhaps, you know, all of these things?

It’s a horrible way to have to think, but it’s what our world is right now. We have a lot more dogs out there being walked that have the capacity and the desire to kill other dogs. So that’s just the truth.

Corey:Um, it is. And I think too, it’s, um, if you’re a responsible pet owner and you know that your dog has at risk, you know, those, the muscles, everything, like there’s a safe way to put those dogs if you have them under control and manage them in that too. So, um, yeah.

So, how do we protect or prevent this from happening and keep our dogs safe on walks?

Sue:Oh, um, so I think, I think we have to be aware of it. I think we have to start with the understanding that real life isn’t like TV dog ownership in, you know, sitcom dog ownership where the dogs are asleep on the couch and, you know, just the dog seems to behave. And I think we have to understand that if we’re out in public with our dogs, or if our dog is out in a yard with access to, um, people or dogs outside of us, that we should be there to supervise and manage.

And that we have to be really responsible for the sake of our dogs and the sake of other dogs. If I have a dog and my dog runs to the window and is barking at somebody or another dog, I’m going to go in and interrupt. I’m going to get my dog’s attention, put her on leash or call him over.

I’m going to work with a trainer, um, to get my dog so that I can quiet my dog down to prevent my dog from doing these things. Um, I want to be responsible, not let my own dog harass other dogs. When I’m out in public, I want my dog focused on me.

I don’t want my dog staring at other dogs. I don’t want my dog approaching other dogs. We just think, oh, isn’t it nice?

My dog should go say hi to that dog. But half the dogs out there don’t want to be approached. We don’t let our kids run up to other kids and just poke at them, curse them and interact with them.

 

You know, we make play dates with certain children that we know the parent and that’s what we should be doing with our dogs. So the main thing is, um, do assume the worst of other dogs out there. Um, don’t assume that just because your dog is quote-unquote, seemingly friendly, your dog should be loose and approach other dogs.

If I don’t think, well, my dog’s not a problem. Um, it isn’t fair to other dogs. Um, and yeah, you know, I’ve been at that.

Corey:Yeah. And you know, um, you talk about putting the fear in them and that’s where when I’m teaching puppy classes or even, you know, we’ve got some for the adolescent or rescues that come in and we do put the fear and we do say your dog doesn’t have to meet every dog. I mean, if you saw me walking my dog on the street, I never know if she’s going to react on the leash and not.

So I will be walking over to the side. I will make her sit. They’ll look at me and she’ll be, and then those people pass and it’s all great.

And then we move on with our walk. So, um, you always have to think about, you know, what could happen and what should happen and, you know, work on that. Um, so I want, I’m looking at time and I’m really respectful of your time and you’ve given us so much here.

If we could kind of, uh, wrap up and if you could give pet parents some advice on some final tips or advice on how they can help their dog thrive in communities, what would it be?

Sue: Uh, um, train your dogs, hire a trainer, go on YouTube. And that doesn’t mean this, you know, obedience or, you know, sit and I’m going to dominate you and you should lie down and stay. And I’m the leader.

Training your dog means teaching your dog through positive reinforcement to have a vocabulary so that when you say something, the dog says, Oh, I know, I know I’m going to do this. And I know that you’re going to look at me and give me a reward. And that joy that comes from trick training.

Um, and the more you train your dog to do things, to have this vocabulary of seemingly useless behaviours, you will see the snowball effect. You will see more attention from your dog. Your dog will seek you out because your dog starts to really admire you.

Your dog says, Oh my God, you know what? You are so much fun to be with. And you’re, you’re my best friend, even out there in the real world.

And we, that’s, you know, that’s always for us, the person or the parent or the leader or the relative that we want to hang out with, right? Fun and attentive and listens to us. And we have this rapport and all these shared joy experiences.

So I want to encourage people to do that. I don’t care if your dog is quote-unquote, well-behaved the more vocabulary you have and the more training you do with reward-based training, the better off. And the other thing is there are a bunch of dog sports out there that are really accessible right now to just pet owners.

So Nosework, the National Association of Canine Scent Work, is a great group. There are classes and instructors everywhere. All dogs can do that.

And it’s really fun. And it puts you in touch with other dog owners. And so NACSW National Association of Canine Scent Work,, there are sports now like Barn Hunt.

There are all sorts of sports now like you can teach your dog to do search and rescue and find you and find family members. And there are so many outlets for our dogs that are fun to get involved in. And the more we do with our dogs, the better we make life for them.

 

And I know you’re sitting there right now with your dogs and you’re thinking, oh, I couldn’t love my dog anymore. I’m telling you, you get involved in a dog sport or in training and you’ll be like, I didn’t know I could love my dog more than I actually do.

Corey:And you know what? It’s so true. And your dog loves you more because you’re tapping into some of this stuff.

And they’re like, wow, look at what I can do. So it’s great. And you know, you mentioned the Nosework, which I’ve done with my dog.

And it’s not just for the young. It’s like for the seniors. I did Nosework with my 14-year-old poodle and she was phenomenal.

So it’s a sport for everyone too. So, Sue, we’ve touched on a lot, the good, the bad and the ugly of the walks. So I can’t thank you enough for sharing your expertise and wisdom and your time.

And for those of you who would like to learn more about Sue, you can go to www.suesternberg.com. If you’re interested in one of her many books and DVDs it is available through Dog Wise and Taser Dog. And I will be putting those in the show notes.

Again, thank you Sue for all you do.

Sue:Thank you for what you do to change your life and your career around to help. Thank you.

Corey:It’s all because of you. So thank you. And for those who would like to learn more about Muttz with Mannerz Canine Training Academy and see the services and programs we offer, you can visit us at www.muttzwithmannerz.com.

If there is a question or future topics you would like us to talk about, you can email us at info at www.muttzwithmannerz.com. Thank you everyone for taking the time today to listen to our podcast. And we hope this topic has enriched the lives at both ends of the leash.

Until next time. Thanks, Sue.

Sue Thanks Corey. Bye-bye.

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