Corey McCusker 00:03
Hello dog lovers, and welcome to Muttz with Mannerz™ Canine Academy Podcast, where we’ll share dog training tips and educational information to help you raise your pup, young or old, so they can be a loving part of your family and your community for life. I’m your host, Corey McCusker, Canine Coach, and today I’m thrilled to have with me co-host, Karen Baxter, Dog Behavior Consultant and Trainer. We are going to review the five steps to finding the right dog trainer for you and your pup. Karen is from Unified K9 Behavior Centre, and has been a guest speaker with us to discuss when you call a dog behavior consultant – you can check out Episode 11 if you want to hear more about that. But today I invited Karen back to co-host with me. And we’re going to review the five steps to go through that you ask yourself and explore when you are looking for the right dog trainer for you and your pup.
Karen Baxter 01:02
Good morning, Corey.
Corey McCusker 01:03
Good morning, Karen. When you get a pup, young or older, it’s a big decision. And all are excited and sometimes nervous as there is so much to know and do. There’s research available in books, online, you can watch YouTube videos, and you can go to trainers that you can discuss it with. The goal is to set up the right foundation and have the knowledge and skills to teach your dog how to be an enjoyable, loving, well-mannered member not only in your family, but in your community. Training is key for this to happen and finding a trainer that can provide you with the tips and skills to help you should be your top priority. But how do you find the right one? And we’re going to talk about the right one. Karen and I are going to share our own personal experience, not only on how we became dog trainers, but our experience with trainers we came in contact too, either as they were teaching us or that we’ve worked with. Karen, you and I became colleagues as I was exploring dog professionals in the community who could support me and who I could refer if I was unable to help the client, usually that would have been a dog behavior problem. I also knew that you ran some great clinics and our philosophies are very similar. So I knew if I referred someone to you, I trust that they will be provided with great service and knowledge. I’d like us now to both share our journey with how we got where we are today and our experience with dog training. I’m going to start, I’ll try and keep it short. I’ll give you the condensed version.
Corey McCusker 02:39
So I always had a dream growing up as a kid that I wanted to be a veterinarian. I ended up being a corporate banker for 22 years. And I did enjoy the challenge. But during that 22 years, I always had that love and passion for animals. So I ended up doing a lot of volunteer work at the Toronto Humane Society or the OSPCA just to keep myself involved with working with mainly dogs, but I worked with some other animals too. I got burnt out and decided that I wanted to pursue my passion and leave the corporate world. And I ended up becoming a coach for humans. But I also ended up working at a veterinarian clinic as a vet assistant and kennel staff member working with dogs. During my time in the bank, I was rescuing a lot of dogs that required trainers and that’s where I started getting introduced to dog trainers and different styles. And I hired many. I remember my first one. I had rescued a Great Dane. I called it my horse in the house. It needed some help. It had some, you know, it was timid, very strong, little bit scared at times. So I ended up hiring a trainer that had used only e-collars. That’s the only thing that they had the option of. So I learned about that and what that was all about. Wasn’t quite sure at the time, but then I had other trainers that you know I was working with that had other Great Danes or other dogs and they used you know, prongs, choke chains, gentle leaders, harness. I was introduced to many things. And I actually ended up, one of the trainers that I was working with, I ended up actually taking a program of hers. She had a dog instructor program that she offered. That’s how my journey as a trainer became because when I took that job at the vet, I had already completed that dog instructor program and the vet said, ‘Hey, we need a resident trainer. Can you be our trainer?’ I’m like, ‘Oh – no, I’m a coach. This is just something I’m doing for fun’. And anyways, I did end up becoming their trainer working with them for 15 years and then, you know, in the last four years, ended up opening my facility. So that’s kind of how I ended up in the dog training world. So, Karen, your journey was different than mine. So I want you to share how you ended up where you are today.
Karen Baxter 05:03
Absolutely. Ironically, some of it is similar in that I also always dreamed of being a vet when I was a kid. And back when I was a child, though, working with animals was not as readily available as it is today, right? So we have more opportunities today to work with animals. Back when I was a kid, I didn’t really have that opportunity. My family were not dog people. So ironic that I am a dog person, but they were not dog people. So I took care of all the neighborhood dogs. That’s how I got my doggy fix when I was a kid and started learning about dog behavior and stuff naturally, just by observation. That’s how I started. And then when I was older, I decided to go into business. So I was a business manager for a lot of years as well, which is good, because I really got a lot of good people skills from working in business. But it was not my true passion of course. It was always dogs. So I had dogs all my adult life. I’ve had dogs and I was also the neighborhood go-to person, when any of my neighbors had any issues with their dogs, they used to come to me and ask me to help them with their dogs. So I did it. I was a hobbyist trainer. So I did lots of reading. And I read lots of things and watched lots of VHS tapes. I know I’m dating myself, but that’s what we did back then. And, but I also enrolled in some local dog training classes when I got my first dog as an adult. And they predominantly used choke chains and things like that for their training. And I remember my first dog training class that I went to butting heads with the trainer, because I knew then that I didn’t want to use those methods on my dog, right? And even though I didn’t know a better way so much, but I did know that I was not okay with punishing my dog because they didn’t know how to do something. So me and the trainer did not get along very well. And it made me very leery of other trainers in the industry because I knew that I was paying them money. And then I wanted, my expectation was I was going to get a knowledge that was going to help my dog. Instead, what I was finding was that the trainers, now we’re going back a few years now, but the trainers were going to use methods that I was philosophically going to have an issue with. So fast forward, you know, back to 11, 12 years ago, right? And I got a very spunky Golden Retriever named Casey, who proved to be more of a challenge than I was used to. And I needed some help. So I started interviewing trainers.
Karen Baxter 07:55
So this is good information for anybody who’s looking for a trainer. Do not be hesitant at all to ask questions or to interview your potential trainer. So I started calling around. I found a local trainer who was predominantly a positive reinforcement trainer and I started taking my handful Golden Retriever puppy – she wasn’t a puppy by then, she was an adult – taking her there. But I mean, I grilled that trainer. I was really leery. So I went to that trainer and they actually were more positive reinforcement. And they had other trainers that work there. They sent me to one of the other trainers. And she was 100% positive reinforcement. So this is how I learned to train my Golden Retriever in a way where I was more cooperative with the trainer. It wasn’t, we were not butting heads. We were not at odds. So, and it really helped my dog. So that’s how I ended up learning more about positive reinforcement. And from there, of course, I was given an opportunity to do some dog training. So I enrolled into a dog training course as well. And then the rest is history. Once I started teaching it, it became clear to me that staying in the corporate business world was not where I was going to be for the rest of my life. And eventually, about 10 years ago, I handed in my notice at corporate world and made the complete switch over to dog training. So now I’m a full-time dog trainer, and behavior consultant.
Corey McCusker 09:20
Yeah, that’s excellent.
Karen Baxter 09:21
In a nutshell.
Corey McCusker 09:22
Yeah. And that’s, you know, I love that you say, “interview”, because I think that’s where sometimes people aren’t really sure. They just go because it’s there. And so I think that’s really good. And I think too – our experience, how we, you know, when we met trainers, there was good feelings and sometimes there was saying, Huh, I’m not really sure about that. So like what’s the first thing a dog owner should think about when they’re looking for a dog trainer?
Karen Baxter 09:49
In my opinion, the first thing somebody should do, when you get your dog, you should think about what are your goals and your objectives? What is that you want to accomplish with the dog? Is it you just you want them to be a well-mannered citizen in the environment and in your neighborhood and in your household? Do you want to do therapy dog work with them? Do you want to do a dog sport with them? You need to have a really clear idea of what it is you want to accomplish when you’re starting to look for your trainer. Because all trainers have different areas of expertise. And if you want to become an agility superstar, you may want to find a trainer who has an agility background, so they can start your puppy off on that right path getting ready for dog sports in the future, for instance. You know, if you want to have a dog that’s a therapy dog, you want to have somebody around who has that experience, right, that they understand what’s required to be a therapy dog, and they can help you achieve that goal with your puppy.
Corey McCusker 10:51
Yeah, great points. And I think that’s one of the first questions I ask when somebody comes to me, and they say, I want to come to you for dog training. That’s the first question. What do you want your dog to learn? What are your goals? Like, where do you want to go? Like, so, that’s a great point.
Corey McCusker 11:08
And another thing I think the person needs to think about when they’re looking for a trainer is their value systems. What are their philosophies, their ethics? And, Karen, we both know, we’ve talked about it, I think we’ve even touched it a little bit. We both know trainers that have different ways of teaching and training the owners and dogs, equipment will vary, beliefs will, on how they train the dogs are going to vary. And there’s a world of options out there when you’re looking for a trainer. When learning the field of dog training, and building my experience and toolbox, I had trainers I worked with that I loved and some that I steered away from either because of their personalities, their belief systems, or maybe their training styles. And even I, when I talk about personalities, I’m somebody, well, you know, I still continue to go out there and learn. I’ve taken your programs. I’ve taken others. And I like somebody to challenge me. Here’s my goal so don’t be nice to me. If I want to do this with my dog, like really pick on me, one, because I’m a trainer and I want to make sure that I’m going to, you know, get the best knowledge. So I think really looking at, do you have the right personality fit with that trainer? Or they’re similar to your belief systems, and that you agree with their training styles. Karen, we talk about training styles, and different ways of training. Let’s expand on that. Tell, like give me your viewpoint on what are some of the things you need to think about.
Karen Baxter 12:36
So yeah, you’re right about the personality of the trainer matching your personality. If what you need is a supportive type of personality that’s going to help nurture you through job training, and you actually end up going with somebody who is a police dog trainer. Not so nice, right? Because, you know, they’re trying to accomplish a task and, you know, they may not have the time to nurture the person as much as a person might need. So that is a really good point. The other thing to look at is training methodologies, definitely. For instance, right, some methods can have serious consequences to your dog if you match up your dog with the wrong style of training. So let me give you an example. So let’s say you got a nice little Cockapoo. And then you take them to a trainer who is a trainer experienced in teaching security dogs, let’s say as an example. So you know, German Shepherds and Dobermans and Rottweilers. And now this isn’t true of all trainers who have that experience, but you want to make sure that the training method they’re going to use on your Cockapoo is not the same as they would use on Rottweiler for instance, right. Because the Cockapoo doesn’t need that strength in training the same as you would like physical strength, like you would need with a Rottweiler. And training methodologies have consequences. So if your sweet little Cockapoo is trained using what they call Compulsion-Based Training, which is… means punishment. So I’m punishing the dog to stop them from doing behavior, right. So, you know, dogs barking, so the dog is barking, I give them a pop on their collar because I want them to stop barking. The consequence to a sensitive soft-natured dog could be that that dog becomes afraid of you. Right? That would be a consequence of the training. Now, positive reinforcement training is the type of training where it’s force-free. We use a lot of reinforcement or using treats or we’re using toys or using praise to teach the dog how to do something. That’s a really good method. Now for some dogs, they need it to be a little firmer than others. So, you know, depending on the type of dog you have, you want to make sure that you have a trainer who knows how to handle that temperament and that breed, right? So like you and I are all-breed dog trainers, that means we have a general knowledge of all the different breeds. So we can tailor our training to match the dog that’s in front of us. And that is ideal. That’s the kind of trainer you really want when you’re dealing with the public unless they specialize, right. Which they can, they can specialize. But that is the difference between positive methods and aversive methods. Aversive methods can have consequences, right? It can make your dog insecure. It can make them afraid, you know, so you really have to be careful when training that you’re not being too aversive with your dog. But we can’t say never, because that’s just not realistic. There’s, we all know there’s something, anything can be viewed as aversive, right, like, anything can be viewed as aversive. A head halter can be viewed as aversive to a dog, right. So it depends on the dog. But you know, we don’t want to be overly harsh. You don’t want to be using choke chains, prawn collars, electric collars, any of that kind of stuff on your dog, if it can be avoided 100% you want to be using methods that build good relationships. And you know, build a lot of trust between you and your dog, because they’re going to be with you for hopefully a good 15 years or so.
Corey McCusker 16:07
And, Karen, I just want to touch on that because I think those are some really valid important points too, because I think when we’re looking at the dog, and here I’m talking from a trainer’s perspective, when we’re looking at the dog, we’re not just looking at the dog, we’re looking at the dog and the owner and the team, and almost the family members if you take it because every one of them has a different personality. I think too, it’s we’re looking at what’s that type of personality, not only the dog’s personality, and what’s their demeanor all about, but also with the owners, because some owners will come with stronger personalities or more timid. And we have to figure out how do we match that, or how do we help the owner understand the skills that are needed to help their dog and not over, and reading that dog’s body language and that too. So I think that’s really key too. And I’ve seen dogs that I mean, even through my experience that have come to me, and you can tell they’ve been shut down based on what’s happened to them. And now we’re dealing with so many rescues that are coming to us. And that’s a whole different training aspect you need to take into . . .
Karen Baxter 17:11
Corey McCusker 17:12
Because it’s not a puppy that’s just come from mom and litter. It’s come with some experience and some history. So you really have to take all of that into consideration. And, Karen, let’s touch on the training methods. Because I mean, there’s different ways a dog can be trained. So let’s touch on those for a minute and I’ll hand that over to you.
Karen Baxter 17:29
Absolutely. All right. So one of the training methods that’s out there that is to consider is a training method they call Board and Train. So it’s not really a method, it’s just a your options for training, right? So, Board and Train. What does that mean, first of all? That means you send your dog away, to go and stay with a trainer for you know, 2, 3, 4 weeks, and the trainer does all the training and gives the dog back to you at the end of it. And hopefully they have learned the basic skills that you’ve required that dog to learn. The one thing with Board and Trains – there’s more than one thing, there’s a couple of things you need to be wary of when you’re, if you’re considering doing Board and Train. I mean, it’s a good option for people who don’t have the time to put into the beginning of a dog’s training. But you still have to put in some time. So even though you may get the foundation’s going with a Board and Train facility, when that dog comes back to you, you have to follow through and carry on with whatever training they did at the Board and Train facility or eventually that training will all go away. So you’ll have spent a lot of money because a Board and Train is very expensive, and your dog will come back to you and they should have some skills, but if you want those skills to stay in place, you have to follow up and follow through with the training that has already started with your pup. The other thing to be careful of if you’re going to go the Board and Train route is please interview and find out what training methodologies they use when the dog is in their care, right, because a lot of Board and Train facilities use various methods and you want to make sure that the methods they’re using match your personal value system so that you’ll be able to carry on after that dog comes home. So that’s the Board and Train option. Your other option, of course is the traditional training, which is to enroll in a training program with a local trainer such as myself or Corey, and you would then take your dog to either private lessons or classes and do the work with your dog yourself, right. So that is the traditional route for training – you and your dog attend a training class or a training session with a professional dog trainer to learn the skills that you need to work together. So you and your dog build yourselves up as a team and work together in learning the skills that the dog needs to learn. And like I said you have a choice, you can do do private sessions or you can do group classes. So, group classes are typically less expensive, and you do them around, you know, other dogs and people. So there’s some exposure that is good for your pup, right? You do not get the personal attention you get from a private session. And of course, it’s a fixed schedule usually. So usually you’re going, you know, once a week for an hour, you know, at the same time every week for a set number of sessions. That’s the traditional training format. If your schedule won’t allow you to commit to doing weekly training at the same time every day, then you may want to consider doing private training, because in private training, it’s flexible. So you can schedule it based on your own personal schedule. You can tailor the training to your personal goals with your dog. So you’re not following the format of a class scenario, right. And if there’s any specific challenges, or personality traits that come up with your dog that you need extra help handling, you get personal attention from the trainer. So it’s a little more expensive than a class, but it does have a lot of flexibility. So those are your traditional ways of getting training for your dog.
Corey McCusker 21:13
Yeah, that’s great. I remember early in my career, I was asked to do a Board and Train, which I did, was one dog, came and lived with us for a month or so. And it was great. But I really wanted to make sure that transferring the skills happened. So that’s where video was taken. But then I also did many sessions afterwards to make sure that okay, what I had focused and done got transferred to the owner. So it is, I don’t do it anymore, because I don’t have the time to do it. I mean, that’s where the group and that so . . . The other key step, I think that is important, and you know, we talked about interviewing is to find out what the trainer’s certification or experience is with dog training. And you and I both know, the dog training world isn’t regulated. Anyone can call themselves a dog trainer. There’s numerous ways to learn dog training. And there’s certification you can get, you can get them, you can get it online or in person. My program, I took at the time was in person. I had to do 250 hours hands on work with dogs. I had to go and work with a veterinarian, so I knew about vaccinations and different things. I worked with a groomer to learn about the breeds, the coats, all of that. And I had to do, you know, a few seminars that were like all weekend seminars, and then I had to actually in order for me to pass, I had to take a dog in for 30 days and train them to be able to demonstrate that I could train them to do everything. And when I say everything, the basic obedience and you know, walking on leash and all of that, and then there was a written exam. And since I’ve done that program, I’ve expanded my knowledge, I’m continuing to learn, or more, got into doing the agility, you know, did scenting. And then I got very passionate about the therapy dog work with St. John’s Ambulance and went and became an evaluator for them, which there was a whole program and a course that I had to take there. So I think as trainers, we have to keep ourselves what you called accountable. I know you and I’ve talked about this. And I think dog training has really evolved a lot too. We talk about old school, and then the new ways of doing things too. So that’s just my personal experience. And as I said, I’m continuing to develop those skills. And Karen, I know your path, especially now that you’ve got in the behavior work has been a little bit different. So share your credentials in your experience.
Karen Baxter 23:38
Well, just like Corey, of course, I also enrolled in a dog training program. I mentioned that earlier. So the program that I enrolled in, had a very large online, written component and examination piece, and it had a hands-on piece as well. I think the hands-on piece is really important, because it does give you the experience working with other dogs, which is really helpful if you’re, you know, just used to working with your own dog. It’s not quite the breadth of experience you need if you’re going to be teaching other people’s dogs, because every personality is different. That’s how I started and then I also, with my own dogs, I also did agility and I also did a competitive obedience sport called Rally Obedience. And I took my dogs to the highest level in Canada that I could, right. So I didn’t do international, but I did go to Nationals with agility and my dog made it to the podium at Nationals, and my, I had another dog, yay, yup. And then I had another dog that – Casey, who I mentioned earlier – did competitive Rally Obedience to the Master Championship Level. So that gave me experience in the competitive world plus extensive, more advanced training experience with my own dogs that I could transfer over to other dogs. As well, I’ve also since then trained many dogs competitively in Rally Obedience and Agility, also to the National and Master Level. So that’s given me a lot of experience that way. And then I’ve always had a passion for behavior, that’s always been something that I loved. And so I worked on it for a while and then a few years ago, I really determined that that’s where I wanted my career to go. That’s the direction I wanted it to go. So since then, I’ve taken, I took the Master Aggression course with Michael Shikashio. I enrolled in the Canine Behaviorology Program, with the Companion Animal Science Institute, I am a member of the International Association for Animal Behavior Consultants, and preparing to take my examination with them. I go to conferences every year. And every year, I have a goal for education. So, as you know, Corey, there’s so much to learn in dog training that I always feel like, I only know the tip of the iceberg. So I’m always reading up new research articles and trying to keep my science-based knowledge as up to date as I possibly can so that I’m always looking for the better way to help my clients and their dogs. That’s pretty much it in a nutshell. You know, it’s a lot of training, right, that we require, right. If we’re going to take and be able to help more, the most dogs possible, we have to continually be educating ourselves. And you know, as members of different things, there is a continuing education requirement, right?
Corey McCusker 26:42
Karen Baxter 26:43
You have to do continuing education, or else you lose your credentials. So . . .
Corey McCusker 26:47
Exactly. No, it’s so true. So true. And that’s where I mean, I’m so glad that we are colleagues and that I found you because you’re a great resource for me too. So you can see, both of our journeys are different. And as I said before, is our values and belief systems are very similar too. So I think the thing we have in common, which I think I touched on about the personalities, I think the thing we have in common is, we know the dogs, I mean, we both come from a business background, like I had the corporate, you were the business manager. So there’s that, that people knowledge that I think is really important too. And we are really training the people that are on the end of the leash. Of course we have the dogs, but it’s really transferring the knowledge that we have so that they can be as effective as we are when we’re working with the dogs.
Karen Baxter 27:37
That’s exactly it.
Corey McCusker 27:39
Yeah. I think the last thing we should mention, one of the steps that dog owners should take is to ask for referrals or references when you’re looking for a dog trainer. You can always check out reviews online. I mean, a lot of my clients come to me from word of mouth, from people in the community, or people I’ve worked with before, and they’ll provide, you know, their personal experience. So let’s expand on this part, the references and I think there’s another piece that probably would go with this too.
Karen Baxter 28:09
Yeah, definitely. One of the things you could do is, you can ask for testimonials from other clients. I’ve had people come to me and say, ask me if there is a client who’d be willing to share their experience. And so I’ll go to one of my clients and ask them if they’d be willing to text or email a potential client, what their experience has been like with us at Unified K9, or with me specifically, depending on what they’re asking for. So that’s another way that you can help people feel more comfortable with your training is to do that, right. The other thing you can do is you can ask them where the training happens. And you can ask if you can visit the facility. And then you may see clients there too. So you can ask questions there when you do that, as well. Right? That would be another way to get a good, comfortable feeling for that training.
Corey McCusker 29:03
Yeah. And you know, it’s interesting, I have people that have said to me, can I come to one of your classes to observe, I’m like, Absolutely, like, come and see us in action, come and see the facility, that, where you would be coming with your dog. So yeah, I think . . .
Karen Baxter 29:18
Like, why wouldn’t you want somebody to watch your class? If, you know, if you you want to show people what it is that you do. Then they are going to feel more confident hiring you, right, if they know what your training style is like.
Corey McCusker 29:32
And one of the things I learned from you, which I’ve incorporated into some of my classes is we have the facility that we do it, but sometimes doing it at other locations or outdoor locations actually provides some more real, like we’re working on leash walking or, you know, some of the recall stuff it’s like, okay, let’s get some more space here so that we can really work on this. So I know that you’ve done that and I’ve actually got some other space that I use now too.
Karen Baxter 30:00
Exactly. And you know, it gives a more real life experience to people. So they have that opportunity to take the skills they’ve learned in their class, and they can transfer it to the real world, right, with support from the trainer at the same time. I mean, it is good to take a look at the facilities that they’re working in. If they’re rundown, and dumpy . . .
Corey McCusker 30:19
No, it’s true.
Karen Baxter 30:20
You know, you got to look at safety, right? Is it safe for your dog, safe for you to be there, that’s another piece, right? Like is, you know, is it full of mold, are the floors broken, or like, you know, is there jagged things around that you or your dog can get hurt on? You don’t really want to be training in a facility like that. And so, a reasonably safe facility that meets the needs of your training is important. And, you know, doing it in a park is fine. Like, that’s, that’s fine, as long as it’s set up in such a way that your dog is going to be safe, and you’re going to be safe. That’s the key.
Corey McCusker 30:55
So true. And I think those are all good points. And, you know, we’ve given the listeners today, kind of five steps to go through. That’s where finding the right trainer is something that an individual has to find for themselves. And so the, just to wrap it up, and some of the key things that we want are the five steps that we suggested today, to find the right trainer is, determining your objectives and your goals. What do you want your dog to learn, or you to learn? What’s your value and belief systems? Like what do you, like what is it that you’re going to – that you would agree with if you were finding them? And what training method do you want to use? And then what is that trainers certification or experience that they have, and is that going to help you reach your objectives and goals? And then getting those referrals or testimonials and visiting the facility that you’re going to be in. And I mean, those are five things that if you go through and you feel good about it, you’re going to get the right trainer and be happy with.
Karen Baxter 32:03
Corey McCusker 32:04
Anything you want to leave with, Karen? Any points?
Karen Baxter 32:09
The only point that I think that we should talk about very quickly is red flags to watch out for when you’re picking your trainer. Right? So we had talked about this between Corey and I, and one of the red flags for me is when somebody calls themself a “balanced trainer”. So if your philosophy and value system wants you to use a positive reinforcement trainer, which is what Corey and I subscribe to, right. When somebody says they’re “balanced”, then that’s a red flag for me, because that means they’re probably using, you know, either prong collars, choke chains, or some sort of aversive method in their training. And that’s why they call themselves “balanced”, right? Because they’re balancing between positive reinforcement and punishment-based methods, right? So that’s a red flag for me. If they ask you to show up with equipment that, you know, is aversive. So if they ask you to show up, please buy a choke chain before you come to puppy class. Right, then, you know, you know that the training methodology is going to be more of a compulsion-based, punishment style of training and is not going to be so positive. And especially with puppies, I am extremely leery of using any type of aversive technique on a puppy. So those those are red flags for me personally.
Corey McCusker 33:27
And then just some of the red flags for me is if the trainer is doing, say, the Board and Train, whatever, and they’re not providing you with any, you know, hands-on or video or whatever, just to help you transfer and see. That’s where, I mean, sometimes even you know, you mentioned there that they might be using certain things. That’s video too, is sometimes . . . I can show you the best video, but what’s really happening all the time too. So that’s where that transferring those skills to the owner is really important too. So we’ve provided a lot of information today, I really want to thank Karen taking the time out of her busy schedule to share with her knowledge and experience and her suggestions in addition to what I’ve suggested on finding the right trainer. And yes, we are trainers. But we want to make sure if it’s not us that you’re going out there and finding the right fit for you and your dog because our goal is that you’re provided with the knowledge and the skills and foundation that you really do have a happy, well trained pup that’s going to stay with you for your entire life. And that’s the thing that we want to make sure. And you know, I’m fortunate to have Karen in my resource too, so I think too is making sure that trainer has resources. If they can’t help you that they’re able to refer you on to somebody else that can. So thank you for listening to us today. Karen, can’t thank you enough. Love talking with you and you know I’m going to have you on again for other ones. So we will be providing links in the show notes for you, our websites, but some other links that you can go to to find out about dog training certification and what’s out there. And if you do want to hear about any other podcasts, please contact us at email@example.com. If you’d like to hear other podcasts, Karen was on number 11, so go listen to that one. It’s a great one. You can go to our website www.muttzwithmannerz.com. Have a great day everyone and thank you for taking the time to listen.